How did it start?
I became really active in those communities starting about 2015-2016, when I was a 16 year-old kid, and it all started with a couple of those “feminist owned” compilations that were plastered everywhere at the time.
At the time I was dealing with a lot of problems for a kid my age, and a lot of things that contributed to me being a target for these groups. I had an alcoholic mother who would pass out during the day and leave me to look after 2 kids, I dealt with SA as a child that gave me weird views about sex and relationships, and I had undiagnosed ASD & ADHD which made it hard to keep friends, do well at school, and have any sort of positive opinion of myself.
Then I found this group saying everything that sounds right to an impressionable kid. “*You’re* not the problem, *they* are. You’re smart like us because you figured out the truth. You’re not a bad person, you’re a king. We’re all brothers. *We* have your back. *We* understand you. *We* agree with you.”
Imagine just how appealing that is for 15 year-old boy who feels like he’s being ignored, and nobody cares about his problems.
What are your thoughts on incels and the kind of ideology (if u can call it that) that they seem to talk about/spread to others.
I think the ideology is pretty dangerous, because it’s all built around insecurity and bitterness – and it’s really difficult to turn your back on it once you’re in.
They don’t want people to look too closely and start scrutinizing their ideas, so everything was a masquerade to make the group seem like this big philisophical movement based on truth and logic.
There were so many posts about scientific studies, talks from big public figures who are considered smart or accomplished, quotes philosophers like Marcus Aurelius, Miyamoto Musashi, Sun Tzu, because it all contributed to the image of this being an intellectual movement.
Because of the insecurity that’s baked into these groups, there’s a massive “crab in a bucket” mentality, which is a real problem for people trying to leave.
Any attempt to better yourself is shamed and mocked and that alone is effective enough to keep people from leaving because, these groups are all they have. They can’t challenge their only support system because then they’ll really have nowhere else to go.
For example, I remember everytime someone would post about meeting a girl, the top comment was always the same: “See you in 6 months”
That’s the cynical attitude they’re cultivating in young men and, again, it’s all insecurity.
They have to believe relationships are all lies, manipulation, a bomb waiting to explode because that’s the only way they can justify being alone and bitter at women. Making it not just a choice, but the rational thing to do. Everyone else is a sheep, lost to the system and being manipulated, and you’re better than them.
What sort of ideas they were attributing to Marcus Aurelius?
I can’t remember a lot of the specifcs anymore, but Stoicism as a whole was a big thing in the group and a part of going ‘Monk Mode’.
I was always coming across misued quotes from Seneca, Epictetus and Aurelius, being used to justify some backwards redpill life advice.
For example, you may see “It is not death that a man should fear, but he should fear never beginning to live” and the post would interpret “beginning to live” as the process of ‘waking up’ and taking the red pill
And something like “No person is free who is not master of himself.” would be interpreted to mean you’re never truly free if you’re married because your wife is your master.
One I remembered seeing was “It is the person who continues in his self-deception and ignorance who is harmed”. I remeber someone interpreting “self-deception and ignorance” as being the bluepill mindset and the American Dream, and how you’ll become a slave to the system if you get married or have kids. Ironically I think that quote applies a lot better to redpill theory.
The whole idea was kinda like “look, these smart Greek philosophers thought the same way we did – they just had a different name for it” so they could frame their group as a kind of renaissance of these ancient ideas that society forgot about.
They did it a lot with the Romans too – they unironically blame Feminism for the fall of Rome , and believed it foretold the rapidly approaching collaspe of our own society.
As I’ve said in other comments, that’s how these groups operate. Twisting small truths and using the words of respected figures to legitimize their own ideas, because they can’t stand on their own merit.
I’ve noticed that it is common for incels to believe that all problems can be solved with sex and that the only way to get sex is to be naturally beautiful. I wanted to know, why do the incel believe so strongly in this?
They believe this because it removes personal responsibility and blame.
If it’s all about looks and nothing else, then there’s nothing to be responsible for. You’re either ugly or pretty and there’s nothing you can do about it. You didn’t do anything wrong – you simply lost the genetic lottery.
I saw some fairly normal/attractive guys back in the day who would convince themselves they were hideous, because that’s the only way they could explain being an incel.
These people are chronically insecure and dealing with major self-esteem issues. They don’t want to face the reality that the problem may just be… them. Something wrong with their personality or their life situation, or their attitude towards women.
They’re so bitter and resentful about a lifetime of rejection, they think they’ll never ever be good enough even if they do try. So they don’t try, or put in any work to change their situation.
It’s just easier to hide behind a convenient excuse like your looks, and stay where you’re comfortable and familiar.
How has your views on their ideology changed over time?
My view of the group at the time was that it was a “safe haven for lost souls”. A place for society’s forgotten and discarded. A support system for the men who fell through the cracks to support each other.
Everybody was encouraged to see the active/well-known members and moderators like pseudo-father figures and wise mentors, and I eventually saw myself as a sort of mentor or teacher for the newer members.
At the time, my dad was also in a very abusive relationship and instead of processing that in a healthy way, I used it as further justification for all the things I was reading online.
I shared it all on Reddit. I wrote about how it was yet another example of AWALT – All Women Are Like That. I wrote that it was evidence that the world was against us and legions of unfeeling, manipulative women were waiting around every corner to ruin a your life.
These days I can’t help but cringe when I think about everything I used to believe. I can’t imagine how much worse my life would be today if I stayed for another 5 years and put more walls up around myself. I would have missed out on so many wonderful friendships and great experiences and once-in-a-lifetime opportunities.
I think the ideology does more harm to it’s members than good, and I think it’s a sad indication of our society that such a group can even exist, and attract so many members.
I feel a genuine sadness for all the young men that never made it out, because I know Them. I know that, no matter how happy they pretend to be or how much they insist it’s a choice, they’re hurting and they’re lonely. Most of them would sell their soul for a hug or a genuine compliment.
This genuinely sounds like the kind of mentality you get with members of cults
Yeah, it’s all painfully obvious to me now, but it’s a different story when you’re you’re in the middle of it. I used to see extremist groups and cults like “That’s dumb, I’d never fall for that” whilst falling into the exact same trap.
It’s kinda like a maze; from above you can see the path clearly, but when you’re on the ground all you see are bushes.
How did you get out of that mindset?
I don’t know if there was ever a defining moment of me getting out, or one key factor that pulled me out. It was just a slow process over years. I met more kind people. I saw good where I’d been told there was only evil and selfishness. I got diagnosed and given a little bit of help and understanding, instead of being seen as misbehaving and lazy.
Most importantly: Empathy. I was shown empathy, and got to show empathy. Many times over many years.
I vividly remember all the tiny acts of kindness people probably didn’t even think about, and I think those had a huge impact.
What’s your opinion on women now?
My opinion on women is a lot more healthy now. Women are just people, and people are just people. Everyone trying to live their lives and it’s just silly to make assumption on 4 billion people based on the few bad examples I grew up with.
People in those groups used to talk about women like they’re unfeeling little robots who can’t think for themselves and just follow these patterns dictated by society with no agency. Like you put any woman in X situation and she will always do Y.
I didn’t really realize at the time but, yeah, it’s literally dehumanization. Sorry to be crass but, you’re essentially taking a bunch of unstable and angry young boys who have nothing to lose, and teaching them that women are basically just NPCs with a hole. Really fucking sinister when you think about the conclusion.
Do you ever find yourself lapsing back into your old way of thinking as a form of intrusive thoughts?
Yeah, I did a little bit the first few weeks after I started to distance myself – I guess it takes a bit of time to adjust so at first my brain’s immediate reaction would be the negativity it had got in the habit of.
But it was just a case of being aware of it when it happened, recognizing it was an emotional response, and correcting myself until it eventually stopped happening.
What would you say are some red flags that someone is getting into this rabbit hole, and (I think most importantly) what are the green flags of someone trying to get out?
I can’t speak for nowadays because I make it a point to avoid all that stuff these days. But back when I was active the sentiment was “do not talk about fight club”, “hide in plain sight” and “become the gray man” so it can be kinda hard to spot unless you know what to look out for.
There used to be whole threads listing and discussing the best responses to use if someone asked you certain questions, as to not ‘paint a target on your back’ by saying what you actually believed.
For example if someone asked “How come you’re not married yet?”, they taught you to say something unassuming like “We’re just taking things kinda slow right now. I mean sure I can’t wait to get married but I’m just so busy focusing on X right now and money’s kinda tight”
instead of “I’ll never getting married. It’s just a big sham from the government to make you a wage slave! Why would I sign a contract for a women to legally steal half of my money and pay her for 18 years when her biological clock kicks in and she leaves. Did you know over half of marriages end in divorce and 80% of divorces are initiated by women”.
As for green flags, I’m not really sure. I think people who are looking for a way out will always try testing the waters first, so it’s about being available and open to talking without judgement if/when that happens.
If people feel like their bidges are already burned, they’re just going to double down and segregate themselves further because at least they’re still part of a group. But if they feel like there’s room for open dialogue and a path back, they’ll feel more comfortable taking that out, and turning their back on the group.
How do you think society can prevent this kind of behavior?
On a broad scale, I think we need more focus on local communities. The internet and globalization has done a lot of good, but it also makes it easier than ever for people to get disconnected and isolated.
Local events, maker spaces, libraries, community centers, family businesses, artisan businesses, local hobby groups, access to decent public transport. Give people something to contribute to and take pride in, a reason to get congregate face to face, and all that positivity will just snowball.
It might seem small but, considering most people don’t even know their own neighbors anymore, a thriving and inclusive local community could make a lot of difference to a lot of lives.
I also think a lot of good can come from improving access to mental health support, with regards to this issue and far too many more. I’m lucky that I got the help I needed, even though I had to fight and spend a lot of money to make it happen. If I didn’t get that help, maybe I’d still be in that group instead of making this post.
On a more personal level, I think we could all do a better job of considering the human being on the other end of the conversation, and being a little more patient with each other.
What would you like to say to someone who is in a similar situation like you were in those few years ago?
I guess my advice would be to just get out there and experience life.
It’s a little cliche but you really do have to just take the leap and start puttting yourself out there – not just for relationships, for everything. At first it sucks and it’s difficult and uncomfortable but it’s worth it. If you don’t you’re gonna blink and hit 30. Still single, still sat inside and glued to some online forum, still feeling bitter at the world and wishing you had the chance you have right now.
And if I could talk to myself I’d say “Don’t give up on yourself. You know you’re worth being alive and worth being loved. This time in a few years you’re going to be the highlight of someone’s day! Then you’re gonna look back and laugh at this, wondering why you were ever worried.
What are your hopes and dreams for the future?
Honestly to just carry on as I am and keep working hard. I got a lot closer with my family after I started to work on myself, so I suppose I’d like to treat them to a nice holiday when I can afford it one of these years
